Ok, honestly, comment and say so. I don't mean personally but think more macro. How have you felt about things going on around you in this country? I feel more and more like moving to Canada. Not a joke. If I could take my daughter with me, I truly believe my wife and I would be there as we speak. I am seriously not exaggerating. She is on board with that.
Let me tell you why? My wife feels her rights as a woman are being stripped. I agree. We both feel the "fixes" for education are underfunded and backwards. We are in the midst of a HUGE hassle selling our house that is related to this mess we are in economically. We, like you, are paying through the roof for gas. We are spending billions of dollars for Iraq but witnessing more and more poverty here. I do first hand. We have more and more people moving in that don't speak English and make no attempt at learning it. There is more and more negativity amongst our leaders.
These are factual observations. Things we see. I can't take another 4 years of this. As comoprozac likes to call him, McSame will be that same thing. Is this what you want? Think about it.
I am still cringing at the thought.
16 comments:
Eight is enough.
I think the worst thing I've heard about Iraq is that they have a surplus right now while our government has the largest deficit in our history. Nice.
I have to disagree about the English bit. Why should anyone have to learn English? Why don't you learn Spanish, Chinese, French,etc? I'm not sure your view on this will jive with the Obama camp. Just sayin'.
Not to rain on your parade, but...
Gas is expensive in Canada too. Universal Healthcare is not all it's cracked up to be (though I don't agree with privatized healthcare either. I'm just saying don't go to Canada thinking your troubles are over). Not everyone in Canada speaks English. In fact, if you move to Quebec you better learn French or else you will be guilty of what you are annoyed at here. Housing in Canada is uber expensive. Toronto is about on par with New York. Vancouver - forget about it!
I say all of this just to remind us all that it sorta sucks everywhere. :-) Running away is not the answer. (Canada does have awesome education, I give them that). Fixing what's broken is the only real option.
And to the English comment of comoprozac, all due respect but I must disagree. A country finds unity traditionally in one of two things: religion or language. The former is out solely by the Consititution (if you still believe in that document of course. I do.) So we are left with the latter. While yes, I believe we should all strive to be multi-lingual, I think America needs a national language and that language should be English. Our government is founded on English. Don't go telling me that by 2010 70% of people living in the US will speak Spanish. Many of that percentage also speak English, and let's face it - there is a reason that fact can't state "70% of US citizens." It's an ugly truth, but one none the less. Frankly if we had a national language and had systems in place to teach English, I think it would help a lot of people.
And yes, maybe I do disagree with Obama. That's one reason he hasn't won me over yet. He should really be worried about that fact as I traditionally vote Democrat. But he's too busy pandering to those that will never vote for him anyway. (And yes, I feel the same about McCain.)
Man, I'm snarky today!
I realize my language comment doesn't stick consistently with the rest of my views or that of the Obama camp. I was rambling and sticking to my honest opinions and that came out. I guess it contradicted the post and should have been left out to avoid confusion.
But I agree Kathryn that in this country we should have a dominant language and it is English. I also understand moving to Canada would mean learning French. I would gladly do that for the same reasons I believe immigrants should learn English moving here. Your other Canadian points are well taken.
There are some crazy nationalist sentiments in the English language argument. I'm not really sure we were founded on English completely. When we became a nation, much of America spoke Spanish, French, and many various Native American languages. Just because English won out doesn't mean that we should require every citizen to speak English.
It's an "ugly fact" that we will will be 70% Spanish speakers is completely wrong. Our Hispanic population is expected to rise to 46% over the next couple of decades, but that doesn't mean they all speak Spanish exclusively.
There is something disturbingly exclusionary in this English-only argument. One should be careful joining nationalist movements. They often lead to very unsavory results.
Kathryn, do you have any real reasons for considering McCain. If you do, I like to hear them. Pandering to the middle is what politicians do. However, there are some clear differences between McCain and Obama that should be noted. So, please share whatever it is that makes you reluctant to vote for Obama.
You use the term nationalist like it's a dirty word. I just thought that was interesting. :-) But we are a nation and I don't see anything wrong with wanting us to act like one.
The "ugly fact" is the fact that a good chunk of that 70% won't be US Citizens - not that they are Hispanic. It's an ugly fact that we have such a huge illegal immigration problem and no one is doing anything sensible about it. It's an ugly fact that becasue people don't have the ability to learn English they are stuck at less than minimum wage jobs. It's an ugly fact that we are basically creating a lower than lower class and we are no better than when we were building the subway systems and bridges.
There will always be a coflict in America if we are a country whose identity is in not having one but rather in being a place where people find refuge and bring their (lack of a better term) Old World customs, or if we are a united country with it's own customs, it's own traditions and it's own standards. It's part of what makes this country beautiful. We are right now participating in a discussion that started way before we were born and which will out live us all.
And yes - English won out. That's the point. English won whether you like it or not. We were founded by a variety of countries and explorers back in the day, and I'm always and forever going to be a supporter of multi-lingual studies. We should not be waiting until students are in 7th grade to introduce them to foreign languages. But when this country - as in the USA, not just when the Europeans came over on a boat or two - was founded it was in English. The principles that we hold so near and dear are in English. If the Consititution were in Spanish, Japenese or Swedish, then I'd say we should speak them. But it's not.
I don't like McCain any more than Obama. They both annoy the cr@p out of me. I'm waiting for the debates to see if they say anything worthwhile.
Have I finally found some good conversation on my blog??? YES!
comoprozac, your last comment did ring a bell in my head. As I have mentioned, I'm reading "Lies My Teacher Told Me" and I do recall reading how the birth of our nation is not nearly what we were taught. I do remember reading how English was a dominant language because of the number of Spainards in the country as well as the Native Americans who were flourishing much more than they have ever been given credit to be. If I am correct, there were Spainards in California and New Mexico for a significant period of time before the Constitution was written. So I get your point there.
I am not necessarily against (and I feel Kathryn would agree or already has) everybody learning a multitude of languages, but I still feel as a nation we need certain things to be constant among us, one being language. I don't want to come off as a crazy nationalist or extremist, but I suppose I sometimes do (birth control in the water tendancies).
I find this interesting because I think the two of you would agree on so many issues but this is one you don't. Maybe I am wrong.
And Kathryn, such a Hillary supporter, how can you say
Obama annoys the crap out of you? That's cool. Your opinion is yours and this can provide comoprozac with some interesting views into the moderates' opinions of this election, but I would think Obama would be WAY closer to what you liked about Hillary than McCain?
Got teaching to do...Out
I meant English was NOT a dominant language earlier in that comment sorry
I guess part of what we have to consider is how this country grew. Yes there were Spainards (or at least Spanish speaking people) in the West long before those territories became states (and yes, invaded). That is something to consider. I guess what I'm looking at is history from an identity point of view. Our identity may not have begun with the Revolutionary War but we all have to admit that it was a huge plot point - it was the "turning point" to use conflict chart terms. And so when I look to that event and the events that it involves and created, I think English.
Beau, you and I are agreeing on the point that we should all speak more than one language. And I'm not saying that we should make English our national language and then never allow another language to be spoken. I'm agrueing national language on an identity level. Also, I think what people fail to see is that by being "inclusive" and not having a national language we are in ways doing more harm than good. It means we have an excuse for not teaching English to non-English speaking residents. That hurts them. I was at the History Museum and they were talking about Orlando and Disney and how while yes it created jobs they are mostly service jobs (cafeteria staff, maids, etc). It got me thinking - those are sorta crappy jobs to have. It's hard to take pride in your work or move up. And when you think of who has those jobs it's a lot of people that don't speak English. I'd like to think that they can be given the resources to move up and get a different type of job. But that requires English. THAT is my point. Whether or not America has a national language won't change the fact that the world of capitalism does, and that is English. (Maybe one day Chinese. Though then it woudln't be capitalism. You know what I mean)
I am not a McCain supporter, please stop assuming that just because someone is less than enthralled with the second coming that is Obama means that they are pro-McCain. I want that to be very clear in the coming months. Obama has simply said nothing to make me think he can do anything that he says he will do, nor has he inspired me to the point where I will do it for him (going back to the inspiring/"dream" v "plan" convo). McCain has constantly frustrated me and frankly pissed me off. So I'm forced to just sit here in the middle hoping that in the next two months I will be swayed or wooed. Frankly Beau, you should be happy that your little sister is not easily wooed :-)
PS - this is fun!
I still think this idea of a national language is exclusionary and wreaks of nationalism. Nationalism is not a good thing. What it does is often breed contempt for those who do not conform or fit the status quo or, as in many cases, simply cannot conform. Nationalism in its most extreme forms results in prejudice, conflict, and even violence.
The rise of Nazism is greatly attributed to nationalism. It's also greatly accepted that nationalism caused World Wars I and II.
I don't think either of you have this sort of animosity toward non-English speakers, but this how nationalism begins.
As far as the Obama/McCain debate, I don't get why some people can't decide between the two. They are clearly very different candidates with very different platforms. I don't understand the sentiment that many Americans have that the next president has to inspire them or excite them to vote their way.
Although I feel very inspired by Obama's words and story, that is not what made me support his candidacy. I don't base my vote on excitement over a candidate. I base it on the issues.
Aside from the debate over English (which, BTW is not a issue in this year's election), I have not heard an issue mentioned in this discussion.
You don't have to bring the issue to this conversation. Simply go to both candidates' websites and see for yourself.
If you (Kathryn) are a Hillary supporter as John suggests, then you will find more in common with Obama than with McCain. Your brother is right on this point.
Besides, both Clintons made it very clear that they back Obama.
Zac I see where you are going with the nationalism thing. And the Nazi reference paints a better picture for me I guess. I hate to argue that point. I guess I would just wish that we could unify through language without going to far.
I am becoming more interested in the dialogue between you two regarding the election because while Kathryn and I are participating in a thread on facebook with other family, that is almost 100% pro Obama and for the reasons that Obama will create energy and movement in the streets moreso than McCain. I aknowledge not everything will be done that he says will be done by him personally. I still hold onto my mom's point that Obama will motivate people on the streets to make the differences and set things in motion.
So in this forum things are a bit different. No worries Kathryn, I won't link you to McCain, but you are doing a good job of representing those people that Zac "can't understand." At the same time Zac represents those Pro Obama people that love him for different reasons as our family does. Obviously Zac already wrote this.
I would love to see where the conversation can go regarding the issues and the opinions of you two providing a clearer picture of "that point of view" that you each represent to each other.
Did that make sense? Are my stances clear?
Like the reproductive rights? Healthcare? The War? Education? The economy?
LOVING this discussion - the exact type of civil discourse that's so desperately needed, and frighteningly absent, in our country today!
Let me return to John's original question: the last 8 years for me have provided complete reaffirmation that as a gay American, I will remain a second-class citizen - my rights forever truncated - by the Republican party and a Republican administration. Ohio's Issue 1 was the country's most vitriolic, unnecessary assertion of heterosexism we've ever seen. Obama is not perfect; he's not a Messiah, and doesn't need to be. He needs to hear from, and listen to, constituents; I believe that he will do that. I do not - big-time, DO NOT - believe that McCain/Pailin will have anything but more of the same thing we've seen in this frightening administration. Obama gives me hope, and I believe hope is a foundation for a plan. I believe he is a man of deep intelligence who will surround himself with a capable cabinet to forge a plan. I do NOT believe the same about McCain/Pailin. I think McCain has a heroic past and a fossilized present and future. He walks in lockstep with the flat-out dumbest President this country has ever seen. Pailin is frightening to me for more reasons than I can count (writing from work!). Yup - I trust Obama/Biden - and I certainly like what I feel about at least 4 years spent under their leadership. Hmmm...Clinton administration...growth, balanced budged...improved lives in America. Bush administration - everything John has cited.
English is foundational, primary and vital as a national language. I also believe that our systems are so broken, that practically every country in the world is ahead of us in linguistic education. And in this century, that puts us in a terrifyingly backward place.
All that said, Kathryn - you're one of the most astute, intelligent people I know. You'll make a choice derived from your brain and heart, both of which are firmly in the right place.
My great fear for our country (okay, just ONE of them) is that sincere, patriotic Americans like you will find enough things they don't like on both sides that you'll all stay home on Election Day. And that would be a national tragedy.
Congratulations, Mr. Huey - GREAT DIALOGUE!
Well put. I wanted to piggy back off your paragraph about Kathryn finding the wrongs in both candidates and possibly staying home on election day. I doubt she will, she can tell us, but there are other Americans who may and that scares me. We know the right will come out in droves. We know the haters will come out to vote against OB. This all scares me.
I also thought to myself the other day (not a dig on you babs) how I get annoyed with people who give the "they both suck" comment. I think that is a cop out. Or a hint that they are uncomfortable to talk politics and want the dicussion to stop. So I try to stop. But I stop annoyed nonetheless. Kathryn, I don't believe this is you. I believe you sincerely feel that way and have your reasons maintaiing the discussion despite that opinion.
Wanted to get that pet peeve out there. Continue. Please.
I haven't gone missing, I just haven't had a chance to sit down and really respond. But I will!!
I am not sure why I never thought of it this way but I was just reflecting on Issue 1 Auntie Mame (would you have ever taken that nickname on had the lil one not been born) brought up and realized you are right when you stated unnecessary. I get all caught up on how it is "wrong" but really it was wrong because it was unnecessarily exclusionary.
The unnecessary part hit home. What good did that do? Seriously. What have we gained from that gay or straight? It didn't add anything to straight marriages. It didn't bring in any money. It didn't fix a wrong. It didn't give anyone freedom that didn't have it. I mean, what was the point?
It truly goes against any logic and everything we supposedly stand for in this country. But this is the same country that knowingly allowed slavery for a century. Founded by men who knew this and looked the other way at best if not flat out contradicting it. And segregation. And going over a century not allowing women to vote.
Suddenly I feel anti-American and this is NOT the day I want to do that. I want to feel patriotic today and celebrate what is good about us and our country despite these shortcomings. Like we aren't China. I can write these things in a public forum without getting punished.....I hope.
I may have to put my end of the argument on hold. Something about my wife birthing a baby and the new-found responsibilities of fatherhood. Or something.
Either way, keep up the political discourse! Vote Obama...early and often.
Yes sir.... that is understandable and expected of a new dad.
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